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Am I working out wrong? .... 22y/o - 5'8" - 147 Lb
- Thread starter mamajaiy
- Start date
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- natural bodybuilding
@beckywantstosmile Lol yeah I guess I am lucky in that sense. I see a lot of dudes at the gym with bad gyno. That shit is so gross, not worth it. Although if you're talking about just having fat mantits, that's fixable I think. Keep the grind up though!
@acts10 Legs currently:
trumpeter2
New member
@mamajaiy You probably don't respond well to the low rep range. Use another one.
Work closely to muscle failure 2 reps at all working sets.
Do a program that let's you do more weekly sets.
Do more isolation work. For example try out cable cross overs to failure and compare if you are feeling them in your chest more.
Also you will need direct about and traps work to jump start your physique that really adds a lot. Alternate dumbell shrugs and upright rows for the traps, throw in cable side raises for the delts. For the abs cable crunches and leg raises.
Do super reps. After you hit the RIR goal of 2 to failure do partial reps in the strongest/middle third of the lift. Do them until you are 2 partial reps away from failure.
Work closely to muscle failure 2 reps at all working sets.
Do a program that let's you do more weekly sets.
Do more isolation work. For example try out cable cross overs to failure and compare if you are feeling them in your chest more.
Also you will need direct about and traps work to jump start your physique that really adds a lot. Alternate dumbell shrugs and upright rows for the traps, throw in cable side raises for the delts. For the abs cable crunches and leg raises.
Do super reps. After you hit the RIR goal of 2 to failure do partial reps in the strongest/middle third of the lift. Do them until you are 2 partial reps away from failure.
@trumpeter2 Does isolation help? I think for chest it would definitely be good idea. I read somewhere isolation is better when you have a pretty good build going and the isolation exercises help chisel the particular body part being isolated, but for someone like me compound exercises are key. I'll try some cable crossovers on my next chest workout. One time I did some shoulder shrugs and accidentally rolled my shoulders forward at the top.... oh my god that shit hurt for months after. I just felt a crunch in my neck.
trumpeter2
New member
@mamajaiy Cable cross overs are a compound exercise, hammer press is a compound exercise.
You probably did not mean compound but machine stuff - The same people who bash machines are the ones who use barbells, which is the second most stable form of an exercise variation, dumbells and dumbells on a swiss ball are less stable but you don't see anyone doing them. In those exercises the stabilizer muscles (in case of the bench press this would be the biceps and shoulder griddle (muscles hidden on, behind and somewhat within your scapula, there is no reason to train them, if some of them get too big it causes shoulder issues, no one trains them unless they need rehab) act as additional resistance to the prime mover muscles. Now who the fuck says that you can train your biceps with dumbbell bench press? Then why waste energy stabilizing the weight with your biceps when that energy can be used to train the muscle you want to train. Next time instead of incline bench press do the hammer press machine. Instead of bench press cable cross overs. And for real isolation flies. Finish all sets with superreps. Then next week do as many sets less as needed to train the chest again after 2 rest days. Do the same for all muscle groups. The weight should be in the 8-25 rep range, just pick what you enjoy the most. Keep going until you are 2 reps away from failure, then do the same for super reps. Take a deload week every 4-8 weeks. See how that plan is going to be adjusted to your body? The sets and reps change for everyone, it's not static anymore, that way your plan is suited for you as an individual.
Why do most experts not program deadlifts? Because they cause too much fatigue. Why do they cause so much fatigue? Because you need your whole body to stabilize the weight, once you have minimal abs you won't be training them with deadlifts anymore, then they only waste energy. In the end you can do less sets and less effective sets because of that. So the reason why they are great (They train your quads, hamstrings, gluts, spinal erectors, lower back, traps, abs...) becomes the reason they are bad. There are better variations like the romanian deadlift, good mornings and pull throughs.
You can do the shoulder shrugs on the smith machine or hammer press or an shoulder press machine, there you won't be able to roll forward.
BTW for the upright rows do them with at least shoulder wide grip, the narrow grip is bad form.
This whole don't use machines is just weird manly thing "Hurr you gonna use the manly exercise! Don't use bitch weight" this is exactly the ego problem all bodybuilders talked about for ages but here on reddit fitness everyone is circlejerking about how important it is to be strong and use the manly exercises because we are manly men men. While no one on the bodybuilding subreddit would ever touch 5x5 or deadlifts.
You won't find any study that shows machines are worse than free weights. Stop listening to the rationalizations of other ego lifters and focus on your physique. If you start training like that take a picture after 6 weeks and come back at me. 6 Weeks is nothing for muscle building but I bet that way is so much better than your current way that you will see results in such a short amount of time.
You probably did not mean compound but machine stuff - The same people who bash machines are the ones who use barbells, which is the second most stable form of an exercise variation, dumbells and dumbells on a swiss ball are less stable but you don't see anyone doing them. In those exercises the stabilizer muscles (in case of the bench press this would be the biceps and shoulder griddle (muscles hidden on, behind and somewhat within your scapula, there is no reason to train them, if some of them get too big it causes shoulder issues, no one trains them unless they need rehab) act as additional resistance to the prime mover muscles. Now who the fuck says that you can train your biceps with dumbbell bench press? Then why waste energy stabilizing the weight with your biceps when that energy can be used to train the muscle you want to train. Next time instead of incline bench press do the hammer press machine. Instead of bench press cable cross overs. And for real isolation flies. Finish all sets with superreps. Then next week do as many sets less as needed to train the chest again after 2 rest days. Do the same for all muscle groups. The weight should be in the 8-25 rep range, just pick what you enjoy the most. Keep going until you are 2 reps away from failure, then do the same for super reps. Take a deload week every 4-8 weeks. See how that plan is going to be adjusted to your body? The sets and reps change for everyone, it's not static anymore, that way your plan is suited for you as an individual.
Why do most experts not program deadlifts? Because they cause too much fatigue. Why do they cause so much fatigue? Because you need your whole body to stabilize the weight, once you have minimal abs you won't be training them with deadlifts anymore, then they only waste energy. In the end you can do less sets and less effective sets because of that. So the reason why they are great (They train your quads, hamstrings, gluts, spinal erectors, lower back, traps, abs...) becomes the reason they are bad. There are better variations like the romanian deadlift, good mornings and pull throughs.
You can do the shoulder shrugs on the smith machine or hammer press or an shoulder press machine, there you won't be able to roll forward.
BTW for the upright rows do them with at least shoulder wide grip, the narrow grip is bad form.
This whole don't use machines is just weird manly thing "Hurr you gonna use the manly exercise! Don't use bitch weight" this is exactly the ego problem all bodybuilders talked about for ages but here on reddit fitness everyone is circlejerking about how important it is to be strong and use the manly exercises because we are manly men men. While no one on the bodybuilding subreddit would ever touch 5x5 or deadlifts.
You won't find any study that shows machines are worse than free weights. Stop listening to the rationalizations of other ego lifters and focus on your physique. If you start training like that take a picture after 6 weeks and come back at me. 6 Weeks is nothing for muscle building but I bet that way is so much better than your current way that you will see results in such a short amount of time.
@mamajaiy Others have said it already, so I'm just going to repeat it help sink it in.
Low reps increase strength but more reps (but not a ludicrous amount more) is exactly what you need. If I'm not mistaken you're an ecto like me, and 8-12 is the magic number. I went from living broomstick to Superhero in 10 months, 4 days a week like you.
I did 8x12 reps and 4 sets on all of my exercises and kept very close track via NotePad app of what I did each previous week. I'd always increase weight by a teenie bit OR increase reps depending on progress. Never let myself plateau.
You want those muscle fibers to feel that intense burn, like they're on the brink of tearing. When they repair, they will do so like as if Vulcan himself is forging your new muscle fibers.
Also if you want abs, squeeze in 2-3 ab exercises before every work out, this helps you avoid having to do a designated "ab day" and thankfully for us ecto's, we don't need much ab work to get chiseled bois.
TL;DR always 4 sets, always 8-12 reps. You've been doing everything else right, so combined with your macros and dedicated fitness regime, you'll see some ULTRA gains in no time.
Low reps increase strength but more reps (but not a ludicrous amount more) is exactly what you need. If I'm not mistaken you're an ecto like me, and 8-12 is the magic number. I went from living broomstick to Superhero in 10 months, 4 days a week like you.
I did 8x12 reps and 4 sets on all of my exercises and kept very close track via NotePad app of what I did each previous week. I'd always increase weight by a teenie bit OR increase reps depending on progress. Never let myself plateau.
You want those muscle fibers to feel that intense burn, like they're on the brink of tearing. When they repair, they will do so like as if Vulcan himself is forging your new muscle fibers.
Also if you want abs, squeeze in 2-3 ab exercises before every work out, this helps you avoid having to do a designated "ab day" and thankfully for us ecto's, we don't need much ab work to get chiseled bois.
TL;DR always 4 sets, always 8-12 reps. You've been doing everything else right, so combined with your macros and dedicated fitness regime, you'll see some ULTRA gains in no time.
@btrailor Yeah I got a lot of good results when I was working in this rep range. The last couple weeks I've been trying to experiment with lower reps to increase strength but I'm going to go back up. Need to fix my form and get my baseline strength equally developed before I go into the lower rep range. Thanks for the advice!
@mamajaiy LMAO TF IS THAT SPLIT
You aren't working out enough of each body part: they are each getting too much rest. Also, the fact that you only work out one body part a week AND STILL HAVE 2 REST DAYS is super bad for muscle growth.
Remember that a muscle group only needs 1 day to rest, 2 AT THE MAX. You have 5 days between each muscle group. By doing that, you are never going to grow muscle or burn fat noticeably.
Here's a split for you. Upper body every other day, Leg days the days in between. No rest days. This gives every muscle group exactly 1 rest day, which is a 48 hour rest period.
Since I have school tho, I just rarely do legs. However, I do hit upper body every other day. Have been working out like that for around 14 months and I definitely have a better body than you (for my age), so I'm pretty sure this split works.
P.S. not trying to be a jackass, just know what works and what doesn't
You aren't working out enough of each body part: they are each getting too much rest. Also, the fact that you only work out one body part a week AND STILL HAVE 2 REST DAYS is super bad for muscle growth.
Remember that a muscle group only needs 1 day to rest, 2 AT THE MAX. You have 5 days between each muscle group. By doing that, you are never going to grow muscle or burn fat noticeably.
Here's a split for you. Upper body every other day, Leg days the days in between. No rest days. This gives every muscle group exactly 1 rest day, which is a 48 hour rest period.
Since I have school tho, I just rarely do legs. However, I do hit upper body every other day. Have been working out like that for around 14 months and I definitely have a better body than you (for my age), so I'm pretty sure this split works.
P.S. not trying to be a jackass, just know what works and what doesn't
@mamajaiy You seem small for your height. I’d say 165-175 would be a weight range where you could carry some big muscle. Though you are lean, so maybe 155-165. Maybe you just don’t put on much...
As for your exercises, they seem low volume. Aim more for the 8-10 range for reps.
Personally I like 5x5, builds dense muscle, but not necessarily volumeous muscle for me. Just remember everyone is different and responds differently.
As for your exercises, they seem low volume. Aim more for the 8-10 range for reps.
Personally I like 5x5, builds dense muscle, but not necessarily volumeous muscle for me. Just remember everyone is different and responds differently.
@mamajaiy I agree with the majority of program advice comments, I think.
It would seem like a natural progression for you to transition to PPL. You could take your Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday workouts as Push, Pull, and legs respectively. You could do them all 2x / week, or do them three days in a row and always take a day off between those three (ie, PPLRPPLR over 8 days).
You could spread the arm days across the other three, as time dictates. The tri stuff would be very complementary to the push workout, but if it's too much for one session, you could move it to the end of your legs day (since that tends to wind up being the quickest one in PPL, though your mileage may vary).
And, keep eating big, but clean. You have a lot of room to grow, but take heart that you already look really fit, so you're in a great position to just add to your advantages. Good luck bro!
It would seem like a natural progression for you to transition to PPL. You could take your Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday workouts as Push, Pull, and legs respectively. You could do them all 2x / week, or do them three days in a row and always take a day off between those three (ie, PPLRPPLR over 8 days).
You could spread the arm days across the other three, as time dictates. The tri stuff would be very complementary to the push workout, but if it's too much for one session, you could move it to the end of your legs day (since that tends to wind up being the quickest one in PPL, though your mileage may vary).
And, keep eating big, but clean. You have a lot of room to grow, but take heart that you already look really fit, so you're in a great position to just add to your advantages. Good luck bro!
salamandersocks
New member
@mamajaiy You have a PR for a close grip bench press... Just thinking about that hurts my shoulders. As others have said, you need more reps: 8-12 or 12-15 on some exercises.
Lower reps (with heavier weight) in the 3-5 range can be beneficial at the beginning of a workout on the bigger, compound lifts like flat bench, deadlift, squat, etc. although I'm personally a big fan of higher reps (5-8) on these most of the time. A single set of deadlifts at 315 lbs x 15 every now and then will leave your lats cramping and your hamstrings feeling like rubber. That's something you can try for yourself.
You should generally keep your reps higher on isolation exercises - focus on chasing "the pump" and "feeling the burn" most of the time, at least if your concern is truly body your body and not increasing the number of lbs on the bar. If you don't go above 5 reps for any exercise ever, I don't think you've even experienced what "the pump" really feels like. 3-5 reps of a dumbbell curl? That's something I might do once every 6 months, if ever. Personally, I don't like to go below 10 reps on exercises like bicep curls or tricep pushdowns, and sometimes I go as high as 20 (and rarely, 30!). I get a much better mind-muscle connection, and I can feel the bicep actually doing the work. I could be wrong, but I would put money down that your form on a lot of exercises, especially isolations, is poor.
For only 3-5 reps on a bicep curl, you're likely not going through a full and controlled range of motion for every single rep and/or you use momentum and may recruit other muscles like the shoulders to move the weight. You're likely focusing on "moving the weight from point A to point B" instead of focusing on "wearing down the muscle". It's simply harder to control heavier weights on single-joint exercises for most people. Again, I can't know for sure without seeing a video of you lift, but I used to do the same thing myself, and most other people I have seen in gyms all across the country do the exact same thing. When it comes to building muscle naturally, increasing strength is important, but form, time under tension, and control have to come before adding weight to the bar just to say you lifted a heavier bar.
Generally, keep your reps slow and controlled, 1 sec or lift the wait, 0.5-1 sec squeeze at peak contraction, then 2 sec to lower the wait - a decent place to start. Do that over 12 reps, and you're looking at 40-48 seconds of time under tension for that set. You're probably not getting 10 seconds per set looking at your rep range and doing some educated guessing.
Also, as others have said, hitting body parts (or better yet, muscle groups) more frequently and with more weekly volume has been shown to promote muscle growth in natural lifters. I wouldn't tunnel too hard on cramming a split into 7 days specifically, but take something like the 3-day PPL, and try 3 days on, one or two days off, or 2 days on and 1 day off. I personally like Arnold's split: chest/back, shoulders/arms, legs and take a rest day whenever I feel the need.
Didn't mean for this to be as long as it did. Hope some of what I said helps. Nutrition is also a huge part of this, but that would take twice as long to expand on, and I feel like you were asking more about lifting improvements.
Tl;dr - lower reps (3-5) is fine for heavy, compound lifts at the start of a workout. 8-15 recommended for isolation exercises. Higher frequency and more volume are as important as increasing strength when it comes to gaining muscle for natural lifters. Also, nutrition.
Edit: didn't see the part about running higher reps earlier, so apologies for that. I still wouldn't change any of my recommendations on lower reps for compound lifts and higher reps on isolation.
Also, for chest development specifically, it needs to be hit from multiple angles, and tension over a full range of motion is necessary. Incline dumbbell bench press, weighted dips (not just at the end of a workout, bodyweight, to failure every time), incline cable fly (and other angles), with a nice squeeze at the top of every rep. Personally, I think the flat barbell bench press is a near-useless exercise in terms of building the chest. It over-emphasizes the triceps and shoulders, and very, very few people can safely lower the bar all the way to touching their chest. Dumbbells are king when it comes to actually building the chest: Incline, flat, or decline.
Lower reps (with heavier weight) in the 3-5 range can be beneficial at the beginning of a workout on the bigger, compound lifts like flat bench, deadlift, squat, etc. although I'm personally a big fan of higher reps (5-8) on these most of the time. A single set of deadlifts at 315 lbs x 15 every now and then will leave your lats cramping and your hamstrings feeling like rubber. That's something you can try for yourself.
You should generally keep your reps higher on isolation exercises - focus on chasing "the pump" and "feeling the burn" most of the time, at least if your concern is truly body your body and not increasing the number of lbs on the bar. If you don't go above 5 reps for any exercise ever, I don't think you've even experienced what "the pump" really feels like. 3-5 reps of a dumbbell curl? That's something I might do once every 6 months, if ever. Personally, I don't like to go below 10 reps on exercises like bicep curls or tricep pushdowns, and sometimes I go as high as 20 (and rarely, 30!). I get a much better mind-muscle connection, and I can feel the bicep actually doing the work. I could be wrong, but I would put money down that your form on a lot of exercises, especially isolations, is poor.
For only 3-5 reps on a bicep curl, you're likely not going through a full and controlled range of motion for every single rep and/or you use momentum and may recruit other muscles like the shoulders to move the weight. You're likely focusing on "moving the weight from point A to point B" instead of focusing on "wearing down the muscle". It's simply harder to control heavier weights on single-joint exercises for most people. Again, I can't know for sure without seeing a video of you lift, but I used to do the same thing myself, and most other people I have seen in gyms all across the country do the exact same thing. When it comes to building muscle naturally, increasing strength is important, but form, time under tension, and control have to come before adding weight to the bar just to say you lifted a heavier bar.
Generally, keep your reps slow and controlled, 1 sec or lift the wait, 0.5-1 sec squeeze at peak contraction, then 2 sec to lower the wait - a decent place to start. Do that over 12 reps, and you're looking at 40-48 seconds of time under tension for that set. You're probably not getting 10 seconds per set looking at your rep range and doing some educated guessing.
Also, as others have said, hitting body parts (or better yet, muscle groups) more frequently and with more weekly volume has been shown to promote muscle growth in natural lifters. I wouldn't tunnel too hard on cramming a split into 7 days specifically, but take something like the 3-day PPL, and try 3 days on, one or two days off, or 2 days on and 1 day off. I personally like Arnold's split: chest/back, shoulders/arms, legs and take a rest day whenever I feel the need.
Didn't mean for this to be as long as it did. Hope some of what I said helps. Nutrition is also a huge part of this, but that would take twice as long to expand on, and I feel like you were asking more about lifting improvements.
Tl;dr - lower reps (3-5) is fine for heavy, compound lifts at the start of a workout. 8-15 recommended for isolation exercises. Higher frequency and more volume are as important as increasing strength when it comes to gaining muscle for natural lifters. Also, nutrition.
Edit: didn't see the part about running higher reps earlier, so apologies for that. I still wouldn't change any of my recommendations on lower reps for compound lifts and higher reps on isolation.
Also, for chest development specifically, it needs to be hit from multiple angles, and tension over a full range of motion is necessary. Incline dumbbell bench press, weighted dips (not just at the end of a workout, bodyweight, to failure every time), incline cable fly (and other angles), with a nice squeeze at the top of every rep. Personally, I think the flat barbell bench press is a near-useless exercise in terms of building the chest. It over-emphasizes the triceps and shoulders, and very, very few people can safely lower the bar all the way to touching their chest. Dumbbells are king when it comes to actually building the chest: Incline, flat, or decline.
@salamandersocks Definitely man! I'm going to be experimenting with some new routines the next few weeks and I think I'll be seeing some good results soon with all this good advice. Thanks!
@mamajaiy You’ve been working out 3 years, age 22, 5’8 with no sort of serious genetic deficiencies or illnesses that you can name. Your bench PR is 155, your squat PR is 245, and your deadlift PR is 315. You don’t look bad, but you look like those are your PRs. And they’re all pretty weak.
Hop on a legitimate strength based program and eat more for 3-6 months.
Hop on a legitimate strength based program and eat more for 3-6 months.
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