Internalized misogyny and sports?
- Thread starter lorial
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@lorial I think the competitive mindset may be another thing to unlearn from gym class/childhood sports. The idea that the primary reason to do exercise is to be better than other people. Of course you can compete if it is fun or motivating to you. But it’s not the only reason to do it. And as you get older it becomes physically impossible to be the literal best at many things.
I have had to get used to not only running slower than men but also than most women, including women older than me, because when I started I was 100lbs overweight and in such bad shape I struggled walking up a flight of stairs. So I don’t compete with the people around me but against myself, and try to give myself credit for how far I’ve come.
I have had to get used to not only running slower than men but also than most women, including women older than me, because when I started I was 100lbs overweight and in such bad shape I struggled walking up a flight of stairs. So I don’t compete with the people around me but against myself, and try to give myself credit for how far I’ve come.
@yowan Absolutely it's so hard to let go of that competitive mindset taught in school. I'm a historian so it's been very helpful to actually pick up books about the history of modern sports and how all this competition, misogny, fatphobia, racism, etc came to be involved with them. E.g. the founder of the Olympics was a virulent white supremacist who thought that "athletic competition" would prove his ideas about racial superiority.
@melody7 Sure. "The Brutal Legacy of the Muscular Christian Movement", an article explaining how games went from being something considered vulgar and lower class to being how upper class European men demonstrated their "sportmanship" and thus superiority over women, the lower classes, and the colonized. "Racism and sport, a sorry story of modern times", an article discussing the racist views of Pierre de Coubertin, how they shaped the Olympics, and how American+Nazi eugenics shaped modern sports. "‘The Revenge of Plassey’: Football in the British Raj", about how colonized South Asians re-appropriated colonial sports as vehicles of new national identities (not my favorite article but there's soooo many studies of sports as gender performance and how colonial sports transformed local masculinities, they get very academic tho).
@lorial Think of it this way. Women excel in academics these days and are far better at getting and maintaining both personal and professional relationships than men. Should men hate themselves for not being on average similarly successful? I’m sure when you manage to see a similar problem outside your own situation you would be able to objectively judge that much more efficiently than you do your own. I’m the same way. I never manage to understand my own issues but I’m great at giving suggestions to others 
. So for me, the best way to figure stuff out for myself is to pretend like I’m helping someone else so I can get an outside view. It’s not always successful but it’s worth a shot.
. So for me, the best way to figure stuff out for myself is to pretend like I’m helping someone else so I can get an outside view. It’s not always successful but it’s worth a shot.@lorial I used to be more like that, but I've always been strong without even trying, so I accepted that as my thing.
Even amongst women, it bothered me in the sports I wanted to play because the taller women would always be better at it. Though there are some sports that a shorter body does better at too.
I am wondering if there are family or cultural issues impacting how you are feeling about this. My own family (including older relatives) wwret always supportive about anything I wanted to try, and didn't force me on specific paths. My country's culture is much better than what it was in the 60's, but media can still be
about it. Then there is local culture, culture of other groups you're involved in...
If my family was really overbearing and opinionated on how I should be, my experience would be totally different. Same if my parents had followed a different branch of the religion they followed. Kinda like the "10,000 hours to master something", 10,000 more negative messages about something is going to impact you in a significant way.
Where it still bothers me between genders is how a "women's side" gym is equipped compared to the "men's side" (which is really co-ed). My gym is better than most, but there is more "this is how women should exercise" equipment, and the equipment is not as good as the other side. Though, it doesn't get broken as much.
The content on the TVs tends to be very male dominated, and the little women's sports content tend to be the "traditionally female" sports. Unfortunately, that is a reflection of the sports network. I wish there was a service they could use where it was more like a guided algorithm playlist - choose 50/50 gendered sports on the coed side with a wider variety of sports, choose 90/10 on the women's side.
Even amongst women, it bothered me in the sports I wanted to play because the taller women would always be better at it. Though there are some sports that a shorter body does better at too.
I am wondering if there are family or cultural issues impacting how you are feeling about this. My own family (including older relatives) wwret always supportive about anything I wanted to try, and didn't force me on specific paths. My country's culture is much better than what it was in the 60's, but media can still be
about it. Then there is local culture, culture of other groups you're involved in...If my family was really overbearing and opinionated on how I should be, my experience would be totally different. Same if my parents had followed a different branch of the religion they followed. Kinda like the "10,000 hours to master something", 10,000 more negative messages about something is going to impact you in a significant way.
Where it still bothers me between genders is how a "women's side" gym is equipped compared to the "men's side" (which is really co-ed). My gym is better than most, but there is more "this is how women should exercise" equipment, and the equipment is not as good as the other side. Though, it doesn't get broken as much.
The content on the TVs tends to be very male dominated, and the little women's sports content tend to be the "traditionally female" sports. Unfortunately, that is a reflection of the sports network. I wish there was a service they could use where it was more like a guided algorithm playlist - choose 50/50 gendered sports on the coed side with a wider variety of sports, choose 90/10 on the women's side.
@monty58 There are 100% family and cultural issues affecting me. I grew up with a narrative that cis men's genitals and superior strength justify their gender roles, and these physical aspects are why young women have to be afraid of being raped by men and ending up pregnant. It's taken me a very long time to be able to make friends with men and even allow myself to spend time alone with a man as a result. It took a LOT of help from friends and lovers and therapy to work through how men are not just "able to rape" willy nilly because they're individually strong, violence doesn't happen in a social vaccuum, they're able to do it and GET AWAY with it because we live in patriarchal societies that give men legal and social power over women regardless of their age or muscle tone. (And also we live in hierarchical societies that favor the "strong" over the "weak" at large, and this harms men too.) Switching from a "men rape because they have dicks" to a "people rape when they have social power" narrative has helped me understand the dynamics of abuse MUCH better - e.g. why disabled folks and children and the elderly are abused at such high rates, why domestic violence is so commonly excused by the courts, why financial power causes abuse in same-sex and queer relationships too, why men are unfortunately also frequently raped by more powerful men, etc. But yeah I didn't expect how this internalized narrative affected how I saw sports as well, and that's why I've posted here.
martinwierzba
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julieann23
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@lorial yeah absolutely. sometimes i want to cry because i feel so weak, and even tasks in everyday life can feel stressful to me, like for example moving, because i worry so much about my capabilities.
But since it’s harder for me i think i learn more about myself. It’s easy for a man to pick up some weights and throw them around, i really have to listen to my body and have good form to be capable. it’s a journey and i love having a workout habit.
And i’m lucky to have a sweet boyfriend that helps me move, cheers me on when i do my routine with the 7.5s instead of the 5lb dumbbells, or run past 1 mile even though he could probably do 10 no problem. lol
But since it’s harder for me i think i learn more about myself. It’s easy for a man to pick up some weights and throw them around, i really have to listen to my body and have good form to be capable. it’s a journey and i love having a workout habit.
And i’m lucky to have a sweet boyfriend that helps me move, cheers me on when i do my routine with the 7.5s instead of the 5lb dumbbells, or run past 1 mile even though he could probably do 10 no problem. lol
injesusarms
New member
@lorial I really just like zoning out and concentrating on what I’m doing while exercising so I don’t like any exercise with other people.
Honestly I’m never going to be the best, fastest, strongest among women or men but I would like to be the most spry 100 year old so I’m playing the long game.
Honestly I’m never going to be the best, fastest, strongest among women or men but I would like to be the most spry 100 year old so I’m playing the long game.
@lorial Well, the fact that men are stronger and faster than women has never bothered me. What does bother me was the narrative that I grew up with in the 1960s and 1970s—“boys don’t like girls with muscles.” So the exercise options that were available were ones that kept women weak and adhering to a “socially acceptable” look (slim, with some “muscle tone” but not actually strong.)
Maybe that narrative is still around. But I am very glad to see strength training become normalized for women, along with a much greater acceptance for women with visible muscles.
I’m old enough to remember the pearl-clutching when the tennis player Martina Navratilova took up serious strength training in the 1970s. No one else in women’s tennis was doing that, and there all this talk about how “unfeminine” she looked. This was years before PEDs were in common use in pro sports; Martina just had some visible muscle. She started kicking everyone’s ass on the court because her strength and conditioning were superior. Suddenly, other women players started lifting.
I’m 67 and am the oldest woman at my powerlifting/Olympic lifting gym. There are a surprising number of women there, which is a major reason I chose this gym. Everyone there is stronger than I am, because of my age and because I took this up a little over a year ago. But I work my ass off to build the muscles I now have, and I am stronger than I have ever been in my life. And I am always inspired by the younger women there. I’m very glad they have an option that was not available to me when I was their age.
Maybe that narrative is still around. But I am very glad to see strength training become normalized for women, along with a much greater acceptance for women with visible muscles.
I’m old enough to remember the pearl-clutching when the tennis player Martina Navratilova took up serious strength training in the 1970s. No one else in women’s tennis was doing that, and there all this talk about how “unfeminine” she looked. This was years before PEDs were in common use in pro sports; Martina just had some visible muscle. She started kicking everyone’s ass on the court because her strength and conditioning were superior. Suddenly, other women players started lifting.
I’m 67 and am the oldest woman at my powerlifting/Olympic lifting gym. There are a surprising number of women there, which is a major reason I chose this gym. Everyone there is stronger than I am, because of my age and because I took this up a little over a year ago. But I work my ass off to build the muscles I now have, and I am stronger than I have ever been in my life. And I am always inspired by the younger women there. I’m very glad they have an option that was not available to me when I was their age.
lethiminyourheart
New member
@lorial Yes! Maybe working out in an environment where there are men who aren't athletic could help, like a non specialist gym, if you haven't already done that? You can find plenty of too so strong or fit guys in those. While unfortunately biology does limit cis women to an extent, that doesn't mean every woman is destined to be worse than every man at sports/lifting etc.
Also, going out of your way to watch some female sports might help. Being small and 'dainty' (in the words of others) makes me feel like the most unnatural candidate for weightlifting, but the women in the 49kg category in elite competitions are badass and max out at about 5"2, with a big range of different body types, from super well defined muscles to... Well, not 'looking like' they lift (certainly not for hours a day), at least to the untrained eye in their lifting clothes.
Also, going out of your way to watch some female sports might help. Being small and 'dainty' (in the words of others) makes me feel like the most unnatural candidate for weightlifting, but the women in the 49kg category in elite competitions are badass and max out at about 5"2, with a big range of different body types, from super well defined muscles to... Well, not 'looking like' they lift (certainly not for hours a day), at least to the untrained eye in their lifting clothes.
lovit77_2000
New member
@lorial I understand where you're coming from, but personally, I compete with myself and only myself. I spent too many years comparing myself to others and beating myself up when I realized I wasn't as good/pretty/skinny as them. Took many years in therapy and unlearning to be at a place where I do things for me.
@lorial No matter what you do or where you go, there will always be someone better. The problem is to not compare yourself to others, we are all on different journeys and at different points on that journey.
Focus more on where you were last week, last month, last year. Are you doing better than you were then? Learn to compete with who you were yesterday and stop competing with people who are running different races.
Focus more on where you were last week, last month, last year. Are you doing better than you were then? Learn to compete with who you were yesterday and stop competing with people who are running different races.
moderncrusader
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melodyonpoint
New member
@lorial Women are for strength too.
Men used to go out for hunts & kill huge animals together.
Women worked all day long gathering supplies and working in the villages with 1-2 babies strapped to their backs. Women nursed their children while they worked.
Humans were this way for a very very long time. How can you tell me women weren’t also designed for strength?
Things like that make me feel empowered as a woman. That my role is society is important and I need to continue to train so I can be the best version of myself.
Men used to go out for hunts & kill huge animals together.
Women worked all day long gathering supplies and working in the villages with 1-2 babies strapped to their backs. Women nursed their children while they worked.
Humans were this way for a very very long time. How can you tell me women weren’t also designed for strength?
Things like that make me feel empowered as a woman. That my role is society is important and I need to continue to train so I can be the best version of myself.