Made absolutely no progress in the past year when I had pretty much everything dialed in, starting to lose motivation..

[wmsgil]

@braynman Over the years I definitely improved on my accessory lifts.

Do you have a progression method besides just going to 1-0 RIR and hoping for the best?

I just go to 0-1 RIR and if the reps I get is out of the rep range I like, I increase the weight.

you "bulked" from 168 to 172?

I'm not sure where you got this from but no that's not what I'm doing. If you look at the attached MacroFactor Data, you can see that my latest cut went down to 157ish and I am doing a lean bulk right now (plan to go to 175ish and see from there, which according to the projection, will be almost a year long bulk).

Also you did make some progress, At you level it's gonna be painfully slow to begin with, and even more so if you are scared of gaining weight.

On one hand I understand this but on the other, you have people like GVS who has been training for I think 8 years already(?), and has put on insane mass over the past (few) years...

 

[braynman]

@wmsgil

over the past (few) years...

Key word being years. You are yoyo-ing your weight around with no long term plan.

 

[wmsgil]

@braynman

You are yoyo-ing your weight around with no long term plan.

Cutting down to 11-12% bf at 157lbs then doing a lean bulk to 175lbs is not a long term plan? The bulk would last almost a year according to the projections.

 

[airforce1]

@wmsgil Just an opinion (from someone who started out at 6'2", 148 lbs, so same boat) - at 6' tall, you don't ever need to get down to 157 lbs again. Don't be scared of putting on some fat, in the process of getting much stronger and quite a bit bigger. You - we - are naturally lean; without the weight gain to get strength gains , our bodies will remain at equilibrium. You can make 176 your new weight floor, as you eat your way up to 196-200 lbs. Eat more - quite a bit more - and increase protein to 176 grams/day - 1 gr per lb of current bodyweight; and as you gain weight, the protein requirement will have to go up too. [Just an opinion]

 

[john_wedding]

@wmsgil Looks like you maintained on a slow cut for a year. some muscles even grew. Maybe PPL or strength programs arent the best for you though, if you feel like you should have grown more.

 

[therapy143]

@wmsgil Maybe look into switching to a 4 day or even a 3 day split. Those extra rest days make a big difference.

 

[gazali]

@wmsgil You look great but 170 lb is too low for a 6’ tall man imo. Could your routines being switched too often? Have you tried bumping your protein to over 200g and doing bulk with a higher surplus?

 

[clock17]

@wmsgil There are a lot more experienced responders in here, but just looking at your pics I might say you will have to eat more of a surplus and allow for some body fat to accumulate with some weight gain.

You may need to trial and error with some rep ranges, volume of total sets and exercise choices and once you find something stick with it for a minimum of 6 months

 

[falerin]

@wmsgil I read your comments and have been through this too. A lot of what people are saying are well-meaning but I’m not sure if it’s entirely helpful.

To break down the components:

1. When you have a lot of muscle to gain, you have to stop wanting to stay so anchored to a specific weight. You say in the comments you tried a lean bulk and when asked to up the aggressiveness, you go all the way to the other extreme and mention dirty bulking. There’s lots of room in-between. Some bodies need more to produce the energy you need to break past plateaus. This was mine. I was about 10% off from where my body was happy. The goal is NOT “to eat” or “gain weight.” The goal is to increase the amount of available energy you have to push at the gym.
2. Recovery was hard for me to understand. I thought it was being tired too but it was more like, “can I hit a PR?” If the answer is no, I’m likely not that recovered. Caffeine has now changed its effect on me and does the complete opposite. I don’t feel “tired,” but if I am plateauing for a week, I know it’s generally a bad sign.
3. Training: this one wasn’t an issue for me but you need to stick with a program longer than the time you have. You mentioned intensity methods but not execution. You may want to go over how you train too. “Hypertropy coach” Joe Bennett may be helpful for you. Attending a workshop or seminar may help if you have the money.

All of this may not be exactly what’s happening with you, but I did a bunch of experimenting and found that the best thing that worked for me was more food, less volume, and reducing the hyper-focus I had on results. When my body was relaxed and happy, it responded.

I’m 7-8 years in and plateau’d in year 6. Went back to a “basic” strength program and then switched back to hypertropy and broke the pleateau again. Sometimes it’s a matter of where you are in your “journey” too.

 

[wmsgil]

@falerin Thank you, a lot of interesting points.

This was mine. I was about 10% off from where my body was happy.

Could you explain a little, I don't quite understand.
Are you saying that I should have a bigger surplus, or bulk for longer (but maintain current surplus), or bigger surplus + longer bulk?

Recovery was hard for me to understand. I thought it was being tired too but it was more like, “can I hit a PR?” If the answer is no, I’m likely not that recovered.

This is an interesting way to think about it. But are you literally progressing every week on lifts? I find that a little hard to believe if you're a seasoned trainee but it seems like that's what you're suggesting?

I did a bunch of experimenting and found that the best thing that worked for me was more food, less volume, and reducing the hyper-focus I had on results

How much surplus did you find was optimal for you? For me, I'm having a 200kcal surplus daily (derived from rate of weight gain), this was my surplus goal all along because I wanted to do a lean bulk. My understanding was that any calories over what's needed for muscle growth is going straight to fat so there's no need to go over. And I'm sure that the 200 surplus I'm having is not all going into muscle, so I'm safe in a sense that I have enough surplus to support all the muscle growth. Not sure if this understanding is correct.

 

[falerin]

@wmsgil

Could you explain a little, I don't quite understand.

I had cut for a competition and reverse dieted up to maintenance quickly and successfully. But my body still was not at all happy with where I was body fat wise. I needed to go 10% beyond my last weight before the cut before I started seeing progress. I had grossly underestimated the amount of weight and calories I needed because I too conservative with my bulk. This represented something like 300-400 over depending on the timeframe. I’m very small so this is significant for me.

Your understanding is correct: in general, yes, you don’t need that much to bulk. But I personally found myself to respond better when I was eating slightly more. I don’t look “dirty bulked” though.

If I put on a lot of muscle in this bulking phase, I won’t have to cut as much. So while it may prolong your dieting phase, no one really knows for sure. And unless you’re a competitor on a timeframe, I’d argue that it doesn’t even matter.

But are you literally progressing every week on lifts

Yes because there’s so many ways to progress outside of weight. There’s intensity, execution, TUT, variations, etc. I find one dimension to work on and improve on that. I just recently got out of a pure strength period (big 3) which I never really focused on being a bodybuilder so there was lots of room there to slap on weight.

Remember that “optimal” and “averages” and “in general” don’t account for n = 1 (you). You may respond better to more food, less volume, different exercises, and so on.

The sucky part is having to keep trying to break plateaus. It can be extremely discouraging but rewarding every time you find a new way.

When I hit my big slump I just switched it up to a beginner program and then did something else active. Came back with more focus, hit PRs again.

 

[wmsgil]

@falerin

I needed to go 10% beyond my last weight before the cut before I started seeing progress.

Gotcha, yea I can see this happening.

The sucky part is having to keep trying to break plateaus.

Yea... esp when the feedback loop takes months.

I think my plan is to 1. deload for a week 2. lower the volume 3. prolong the bulk to 190lbs+ 4. focus on progressive overloaded week by week 5. up the surplus 6. find a coach

Still thinking about 5 and 6

 

[falerin]

@wmsgil Good luck. Wish you all the gains.

 

[marthazh]

@wmsgil "I started a cut from end of Feb at ~172lbs to ~158lbs at end of Apr. Then maintained for a bit and started a lean bulk at a goal rate of 0.42lbs/week."

If you haven't been adding 0.42lbs/week like you set out in your goal, why haven't you addressed this and eaten more food?

Doing the above would solve your issue of not making progress, you're not eating enough food it is that simple

Edit; Formatting

 

[wmsgil]

@marthazh I have been gaining 0.42lbs/week.

https://imgur.com/a/500qeLN

 

[marthazh]

@wmsgil Shit sorry dude, my bad, I didn't realise you had uploaded more physique pictures I only saw the top one

Your May 23 to October 23 pictures look like really solid progress especially your back and I would say nothing is broken

I think trying to compare your picture's bodyweight to bodyweight is skewing your perception of your progress, you look leaner at 164 in the most recent pictures which says you are carrying more muscle now at that same bodyweight

 

[oldrover]

@wmsgil Had a very similar build to yours when I first got into bb, I was around your weight my freshman/sophomore year. Im 33 now and still get my 4/5 days in. My highest I've ever weighed is 250lbs, I'm only 5'10.

You have to bulk, staying lean obviously doesn't seem to be an issue for you which is awesome, you look great, don't let that get into your head, but if you truly want to add some size, you HAVE to be willing to let the midsection go for a short while.

If I was you, 4k calories would be my absolute minimum while, you obviously seem to know about macros and nutrition, but you gotta up it man, you gotta force yourself to grow in the kitchen, then once youve gained about 20-25 lbs, maybe start a cut again, cut down about 10-15 lbs, and then repeat the same cycle again with a bulk and then cut. Each time you go on a cut, you're bigger than what you was the last time you went on a cut.

Another thing that really helped me personally is I'm a bench press junkie, I chased 405lb for years and years and years, it was the only thing that mattered to me, chasing that goal made me change my programing up alot, every chest day would end up with me shooting for the 85 percent area for 1-3 reps. Being so fixated on that goal really made me focus alot more in terms of giving my body what it needed to grow. I reached 405 bench weighing 240.

Funny thing about the whole process was that as soon as I hit my goal on bench? I went on the nastiest cut I've ever had lol, I absolutely hated how I looked (body dysmorphia is real).

For context I float around 200-210, I'm guessing I'm probably 13-15 percent bodyfat and I can still press 365, but I rarely bench as much as I used to, it's been on dumbbells the past few months for me(contractions are so much better for me than flat bench)

Lift heavy if you want to grow, and heavy means above 80 percent of your max for reps.
5x5s was my religion for a long time, as well as German volume training after a deload. Also don't need to get to crazy with exercise selections, the basics work for a reason. Basic compound movements and then throw in your accessories as you see fit.

You got this bro

 

[minara]

@wmsgil Are you not training failure on lifts? I could be you’re switching your programs too often too

 

[tsnkongho]

@wmsgil Jeez dude, you look effing great, most would kill for this. I can't believe you're only weighing in the 160s.

I want more progress, too, I know how you feel. No one can tell you to stop trying to get better but you already look better than most natural trainees I've ever met, and even some enhanced ones!

 

[joyfuljuliana28]

@wmsgil Great physique btw! I think you need to eat more honestly. At 6’ being 175lb at the top of your bulk is still considered skinny. For reference, I’m 5’10 and at the peak of my bulk I intend on being 210lb. Right now I’m 195 and still have very visible abs. You could easily be 225 and still look good.

That’s my advice.