Made absolutely no progress in the past year when I had pretty much everything dialed in, starting to lose motivation..

[wmsgil]

@johnc101 Ok gotchu, so just continue the lean bulk but stop at a much higher body weight. Yea that seems to be the consensus here, thanks!

 

[mike230]

@wmsgil My guy, you're clearly leaner and have more definition. Your quads are a lot bigger and your chest and abs are clearly more cut.

 

[wmsgil]

@mike230 People are saying my legs are bigger but when I compare my thigh measurements from a year back to now, they're actually smaller now (56-57.4cm vs 56-56.5cm now). I think it could be lighting, the different boxer I had on, or maybe I was flexing in one and not the other, I'm really not sure.

I can see the improved definition in my torso a little bit though.

 

[mike230]

@wmsgil Yah, losing fat makes thigh size decrease. Look towards your knees, they're clearly bigger.

I think you're getting a bit too caught up in it. If your reps, weight (as in, on the bar,) ect are increasing, you're getting more muscle somewhere. Make sure your sleep, protein intake, etc is one point. Also make sure your actually resting on rest days.

 

[saendy]

@wmsgil It seems like you were barely above maintenance calories, you have some hyper responders who with just a small increase of food, blow up.

Others have to eat a lot, 2200 cals could well be too low

 

[dieselb0y]

@wmsgil I think your legs are bigger, also traps seem more developed and you look a little leaner. You’re physiqe is perfect if you ask me. I would be perfectly ok with maintaining what you already have.

 

[gailmaki52]

@dieselb0y Would you be okay knowing it took extreme consistency and effort to maintain this physique?

Would you be okay knowing, or thinking, you’d never be able to increase size of x/y/z muscle group, no matter how much effort you put in?

 

[dieselb0y]

@gailmaki52 I think I already know it takes a lot of effort, that’s why a lot of people (including myself) don’t have a body like that. The answer to the 2nd question is, yes, I think I would be ok. Given my genetics, this is peak natty physique. However, I understand that not everybody is like me and some people strive for much more and that’s ok.

 

[gailmaki52]

@dieselb0y Respectable answer. Only thing I’d say is something has to be off in OPs training because if this amount of effort is required for his maintenance, something is wrong. Maintaining once you’ve achieved a solid physique should not require even close to the effort gaining requires

 

[wmsgil]

@gailmaki52 Yep, that's why I'm here

 

[gailmaki52]

@wmsgil I’m following the thread intently; can understood your frustration.

 

[johnc101]

@gailmaki52 this amount of effort very likely isn't required for maintenance. he's obviously trying to improve his physique, but that current combination of variables isn't enough to improve but is very likely way more than enough for maintenance. if he wasn't trying to improve his physique, he could very likely do a lot less and that would net him similar results (maintenance).

 

[robrandazzo]

@wmsgil You're 6" and 168 pounds?
Feels kinda light, but you look pretty well builtin the pics.
Have you been seeing any strength gains?

I was kinda stuck in a plateau for a few months too. Started trying to 'ego lift' a bit by doing partials and using some momentum and going to failure. I started with 4 sets per muscle group per session (2x per week) and went up 1 set each week. My bench increased by 2 reps in just a month so far.

I was doing super strict movement before. Not sure what exactly helped. Just sharing perhaps it will give you ideas

 

[drgary777]

@wmsgil I think you have the discipline and consistency part covered, which is the majority of it. A standout to me is the training and using preprogrammed routines. Also I think you need to prepare to gain more weight, which might mean getting a little bit fatter than you like. EDIT: I misread, ignore "You did a really good job of a clean bulk, but I would have jumped into a maintenance phase for a bit then pushed it a lot further."

I wouldn't worry about your strength much, I'm an ex powerlifter and the biggest strength gains I had were after cutting out the big 3 entirely and focusing entirely on hypertrophy training and gaining size. Program for hypertrophy, track all of your lifts, focus on the stretched position and technique. If your lifts stagnate, try chasing soreness for a little bit to see if you might be doing too little.

EDIT: You mention you're a recovering volume junkie, you may find cutting this back significantly results in more progress. You adapt to the workload you give yourself; this might mean you can do 20 sets of hamstring work before you reach muscular failure, cutting this back after a nice deload and trying to focus on quality could result in more growth and soreness from 5 sets instead.

I also wouldn't worry about your T levels, everyone has low T symptoms from time to time. You've built a great physique with those levels. The caveat is it may be more difficult to cut to stage conditioning without losing muscle. The following is entirely anecdotal and may not happen to you; my natural levels hovered between 350-400, and I had a lot of issues with joint pain, and muscle loss always occurred disproportionally below 10% BF. If your goal is to be a successful natural bodybuilder, the reality is you may not have the genetics to get there. If that isn't your goal I wouldn't even think about your test at all, and even if it is there is nothing you can do about it naturally.

 

[wmsgil]

@drgary777

You did a really good job of a clean bulk, but I would have jumped into a maintenance phase for a bit then pushed it a lot further.

Not sure if I understand correctly, but I think that's what I did/am doing right now (

https://imgur.com/a/500qeLN

), I did a cut, maintained for a bit, and is now doing a long lean bulk.

 

[drgary777]

@wmsgil Sorry I misread this entirely. Nutritionwise I think you're on point and wouldn't change a thing, your rate of gain is great. I would keep going for a significant amount of time with planned deloads. You're making the progress I would expect out of a true natural. It takes a lot of time, and realistically you shouldn't expect a huge visible difference between similar weights and stages at this point. Often others are a better judge of progress than ourselves since you're not going to have a 10lb lean mass swing as a natural with any experience in a short amount of time. I'd keep the bulk going quite a bit further than your previous highs though, even at 190lbs you were leaner than I would start a true cut if my goal was size, just do a mini cut once in a while for sanity.

You mention in another post you come back from deloads weaker. A couple things I can think of here, one is you might be pushing your deloads too late, you really want to avoid the need for a deload sneaking up on you. The other is that your routines might be too reliant on powerlifting programming and lifts; but I can't comment much on the training as I've never followed any of the fixed programs to be familiar with them. Another thing you could try is keeping your load high and just cutting the volume very low during a deload.

Not a sales pitch as I've never used it before, but you also fall into the perfect category of who I think the RP Hypertrophy app might help, although I think it's quite expensive.

 

[wmsgil]

@drgary777

It takes a lot of time, and realistically you shouldn't expect a huge visible difference between similar weights and stages at this point

I replied in other threads as well but on one hand I understand this while on the other, you have people like GVS who has been training for I think 8 years already(?), and has put on insane mass over the past (few) years...

Thanks for the input though, I think the consensus is that I need to put on more weight, and perhaps do a more aggressive bulk

 

[drgary777]

@wmsgil

at I need to put on more weight, and perhaps do a more aggressive bulk

My anecdote to this is I put on at least 15lbs over the last 2 years of quality size after 20 years of training. This is at 5'8.5 so not a small amount of weight. It's not unheard of, but usually there is a big change needing to be made. In your case I really think it's just gaining weight, and possibly programming.

In my case it was just not trying to stay lean, and lowering volume to about 1/4. My weights didn't go up either to compensate, I had just adapted to way too much volume to make any progress on. Cutting out squats, deadlifts, and bench made a huge difference to my training.

Also genetics, I don't like to emphasize it much, but your test levels are not the genetic elite, whereas you're comparing yourself to those that are.

 

[neworthodoxdenomination1]

@wmsgil How did you feel at 190? Would you be willing to lean bulk back up to around 190 again?

At 0.5lb a week, 2lb a month, that would be over a year of nothing but surplus vs. your current approach of like 6 month bulk, 3 month cut, 3 month maintenance.

Anecdotally:

• Bald Omni Man has been lean bulking for like 2 to 3 years now he said, and I believe Alex Leonidas was also bulking for at least a year before his big cut
• Max Euceda is also bulking right now and is planning to do it for 2 years
• I know this is a bodybuilding sub but, I'm a powerlifter and, in powerlifting, weight classes are kinda "height classes" as well. Meaning, for a certain weight class, most of the people are around the same height. Generally, people at 6ft are in the 220 or 242lb weight classes. I myself am 5'11", 235lb, though clearly not as lean as you lol.

I say all this to say, I think you would maybe see more success if you took the bulk a little further in terms of weight. I think you still have a lot of mass to put on to a 6ft frame

 

[wmsgil]

@neworthodoxdenomination1 Tbh when I was at 190 I felt fine physically, apart from the fact that I was dirty bulking and had to stuff food down my throat.

At 0.5lb a week, 2lb a month, that would be over a year of nothing but surplus vs. your current approach of like 6 month bulk, 3 month cut, 3 month maintenance.

So I started the lean bulk on May 29th, and given the current projection, I'd reach my end weight of 175lbs on Apr 3rd next year. This is a bulk of 10 months already. But I do think I'd be okay with going further than 175lbs.

I say all this to say, I think you would maybe see more success if you took the bulk a little further in terms of weight. I think you still have a lot of mass to put on to a 6ft frame

Yea I agree, thanks for the input!