Mike Mentzer's heavy duty program and callisthenics

[life4h1m]

As many of you probably know, Mike has some pretty unorthodox views (by today's standards, I guess) on how bodybuilding workout should be programmed. More precisely, he claims that one very hard set (to complete failure, with a weight that allows 6-10 reps) is enough for muscle growth, that workout session should be fairly short, e.g. 20 minutes, and that a person should workout once ot twice a week.

The question is has anyone tried this with bodyweight workout? Could it work? If I remember correctly, K Bogues argued in one of his clips that one hard set could be enough, but I think he suggests doing it on a daily bases.

 

[beaud20]

@life4h1m Mentzer had superior genetics and used PEDs.

That said doing calisthenics is 1000% better than sitting on your couch.

 

[unknownsource]

@beaud20 AND he didnt even use this style of training when he was competing...

 

[shadowwings]

@unknownsource He used similar techniques and principles. That was mentzers big objective, to get people to think rationally about training and not copy and pasting someone’s workout because they have an Olympia trophy. If a 4 day split works for you that’s fine, and if a 2 day split works that’s also fine. His point was to get people to stop mindlessly approaching bodybuilding expecting the same results as everyone else because at the time aronold and his friends promoted very high volume training and if you’re hitting the gym 5-6 days a week and doing 20 weekly sets of bicep exercises (an example) you’re not going to make much progress. You might make some but he wanted you to question if you could make more growth by giving yourself an extra rest day or two or dialing your sets back to 10 sets a body part a week at most.

 

[lmr]

@beaud20 This is true but so did everyone he competed against.

 

[tboss]

@life4h1m There is a video by Jeff nippard (a natural bodybuilder) that elaborates on this approach a bit. In summary he says that it could work for some especially if you go to failure adding drop sets on each excersise. My translation to bodyweight for this would be something like this example: if for example you reach failure on pull ups you continue without rest with an easier progression like pull ups with bands and continue to reach failure on each easier progression (regression?)

Haven't tried it though cause of too much strain in the tendons and stuff.

 

[batcat]

@tboss I worked out for years doing conventional workouts and got no where. I tweaked mike mentzers program and my boby changed and i finally started looking good. He didnt say do one set only he said START with one set. If you do one set and your stronger the next workout then one set is what you need to do. But if one set didnt make you stronger then do 2 sets and it may be 1 set or 10 sets but how ever many sets you need to do to be stronger the next workout is what you should do and every body part is different. There's a direct correlation between size and strength It might take you 10 sets on legs to get stronger where on biceps only 1 or 2 sets but each individual person has to figure that out for themselves it works it's the only thing that ever worked for me I'm a very hard gainer. I spoke to Mike mentzer on the phone numerous times He helped me a lot

 

[cedd660]

@life4h1m Try it out for a month and see if it works for you. 90% here commenting on it have never tried it. Don't believe in superior genetics unless your trying to achieve a gold medal. Ofc course PED's do help and most bodybuilders and powerlifters take them or have in the past though many deny it.

 

[blessedisshe]

@cedd660 I did a program that the navy seals put out to prep their guys for buds. the strength training aspect was an upper / lower split - 4x a week for one set of 12 at max weight. it was a fucking grinder as the program was 6 months long but I saw incredible improvements.

 

[sshyam]

@blessedisshe Do you have a link for this by any chance? I like the sounds of it

 

[russman]

@life4h1m One set to failure does not mean one set total. He is not counting warm up sets. The final set at the weight you can complete about 8-10 reps by the time you fail is the “one set” he’s talking about.

And yeah, I follow his method to a certain extent. I have dips and pull ups in my routine that go until failure on the final set with negatives and isometrics added on. I’m loving it.

 

[life4h1m]

@russman True

 

[613jono]

@life4h1m

The question is has anyone tried this with bodyweight workout? Could it work? If I remember correctly, K Bogues argued in one of his clips that one hard set could be enough, but I think he suggests doing it on a daily basis.

A set with 1 or 2 reps in reserve is a hard set! The irony is that the people who say, "Leaving one repetition in the tank isn't training hard." probably don't train hard. If there is an exercise that you can do 10 reps, and you do 10, the 9th repetition should not feel easy!

There is a genius with Mentzer's programming. Most people who are not resistance trained underestimate their reps in reserve. So if they follow programs that say to leave two reps in the tank, they often leave four or five repetitions, meaning no gains. So Mentzer's program will be hugely better than the effort most people put in. Mentzer's program is also good for people who don't rest enough. When you realize that 90% of the people working out are not training hard or recovering enough, then Mentzer's program is better than what most people are doing.

However, higher volume leads to more muscle growth. Your volume should be as high as it can without sacrificing intensity, movement quality, and recovery. For most people, that is higher than what Mentzer prescribes. Volume is a factor in muscle growth and doing over 10 sets leads to more muscle growth for most people. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27433992/ (The people in these studies had researchers prodding them to do more reps. They were training to failure.)

Now in terms of calisthenics, having such a small rep range could limit you if you don't have a loadable weight vest. I would expand the rep range to at least 5 to 15. You can't really progress on certain exercises with such a small rep range. Progressing calisthenics exercises can require more skill, joint stress, and load. (Pushups -> archer pushups is not like adding five pounds to a bench press).

I am someone who can go very hard. If I train like HIT recommends, I would be injured and sore all the time, the opposite of my fitness goals. Most of the HIT advocates use a lot of machines. While this is fine for bodybuilding, you are removing a lot of the stabilizer muscles, which will promote overall health and real world strength. Andrew Huberman, a user of HIT, has no hinge movements in his main fitness program. The hinge movement pattern is the most beneficial pattern for athletics. No "functional" program should omit it. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. HIT without machines is a recipe for injury.

 

[iambridget]

@life4h1m I train 1xf BW squat, chinups, dips and shoulder press every 5-7 days and the progress has been very good. And best of all, it has freed up time and made me less fatigued in my everyday life. I absolutely advice you to try it! This has elements from both Kboges and Mentzer.

Edit: I go to eccentric failure on dips and chinups after concetric failure, which I think is important to maximize gains.

 

[life4h1m]

@iambridget Yeah, I've seen a clip where Mentzer suggests rest-pause after failure. Although Mentzer's 'traditional' rest pause approach is a set of 4-5 one rep maxes, with 15 seconds of rest in-between.

 

[lutherisch]

@iambridget Is that all you do or do you do other workouts, and just once a week or so train to failure?

 

[iambridget]

@lutherisch Thats all I do when it comes to strength training. I used to alternate deadlift and BW squat, but the fatigue from the deadlift was not worth it for me. Then I added shoulder presses to make up for the lost upper back and traps training, as well as getting some stimuli for my side delts.

Yes, I train every 5-7 days and go to failure, including eccentric failure for dips and chinups (I stop after the last eccentric rep I have control over to avoid injuries, so not "true" eccentric failure). In addition to this I walk with my dog every day, so I do move my body a bit every day even when I'm resting from the strength training.

 

[lutherisch]

@iambridget Thats very interesting. I'm looking to switch into BW training because of similar reasons, the fatigue from weight training was too much and is the reason I'm not consistent. But I didnt think just this would be enough. Have you had any changes in your physique as well as strength?

Also, do you do BW for all of them or do you weight the chinups/dips/shoulder presses?

 

[iambridget]

@lutherisch Yes, consistency really is the key and its a lot easier with this approach, also because of the lowered risk for injuries. Personally I think my body looks better now than when I lifted weights 3-4 times a week, but that may also be because I have always responded better to dips and chinups than bench press and rows etc in terms of building muscle.

I do just BW on chinups and dips since I weigh about 95kg (~190cm high) and dont want my tendons to get injuried (which have been a problem for me earlier with heavy weight training). For the shoulder press I use a barbell, but I dont see why HP for example cant be used instead.

My advice is to just give it a try if you are curious and see for yourself if it works or not. The worst case scenario is that you have trained suboptimal for a few weeks and have gotten a definite answer; the best case scenario is that you have found a long term strategy for building muscle that is time-efficient and sustainable.

 

[lutherisch]

@iambridget Awesome. Thanks a lot for the detailed explanations! I'm definitely going to try that out