@claudiabrinkmann1566 what does lifting with intent and force even mean then? your intent is just to move the weight from A to B and therefore the force is just whatever it takes to move the weight, but you're capable of much more. how can you say you took the set to failure if half the set you're not even outputting what you could
i don't really care how you lift and lots of things get results, the point is if you don't go to true failure, you can probably do more and it'd benefit you
@claudiabrinkmann1566 why are you conserving energy if your goal is true failure? the point of a working set to failure is to totally stimulate and fatigue the muscle. if you need to save energy and this is giving you extra reps because you're otherwise failing a set due to reasons other than muscular fatigue on a set of all out 15, that's a fitness issue.
and volume does not equal hypertrophy - that's the main discussion of this post. if volume = hypertrophy, do sets of 50 with 10 RIR for 30 sets.
again, i'm not saying your way of lifting is wrong or ineffective or that failure should be used or not used, i'm just saying that what you're describing is not true failure. i 100% agree with you that true failure on squats for 15 reps is absolutely brutal and probably not worth it, so conserving energy as you describe makes sense, but you can't go on to say that it's a set to true failure. your description of training is not flawed or ineffective, the only implication is you would have to do more to get the same stimulus as if you went to true failure which was what i was saying in the original post. you're kinda proving my point - most people aren't going to true failure, so it's probably fine to do more than the lower volume of working set recommendations that are preached by the guys like Dante Trudel or Jordan peters, etc. who really are taking everything to true failure
@johnc101 Because by going as hard as possible with each rep in a higher rep scheme you’re likely wasting systemic energy rather than tiring the target muscle out
Also volume absolutely equals hypertrophy, but remember weight is a component of volume. So yes you need between 5-30 rep sets per the literature but it also has to be a high enough weight to get to the “high volume” goal
It’s going to be extremely difficult to grow any muscle for example on calves doing 300lb 3 rep sets compared to lowering the weight and getting lots of reps but this gets a little more complicated as some exercises and muscles are better geared towards certain rep ranges/schemes
Overall volume is the main driver of hypertrophy though
@claudiabrinkmann1566 idk what this wasting of systemic energy you're talking about is. the muscle is working to its full capacity during the reps and working set - how is that a waste? who cares if it takes a minute or two longer to recover or you can take a gatorade into the gym and besides, you are doing less volume this way anyway.
the load between 5-30 reps is equivalent given that you go to failure.
i agree that 3 rep sets aren't ideal for hypertrophy and that some exercises and muscle groups are better geared towards certain rep ranges/schemes.
okay to the volume - i should have clarified that volume does not equal hypertrophy in the basic sense you originally implied (moving more weight more times = more growth). your level of fatigue, force generation and effort all make a difference which is what my original post was talking about. volume of mechanical tension is the main driver - and this is related to the amount of muscle fibers are stimulated and working during the reps. there is a big difference between the amount of mechanical tension during a true failure set and a set with 2-3 RIR for example. so, you generally have to do more sets of 2-3 RIR to equate to the stimulus of a true failure set.
@claudiabrinkmann1566 Can you explain why the calves grow better from higher reps? The data shows calves grow similarly with low rep and high rep schemes.
@katma In a vacuum, the calf muscle is no different from the rest but when taken in terms of practicality, loading up the bar to do calf raises will cause unnecessary axial loads/fatigue that will compromise other areas of training. Plus using such a heavy load for something like the calves will likely require effort from other non target muscles which again create fatigue without a good calf stimulus
Probably best to stick to 10-30 rep sets close to failure, this article does a good job explaining the nuance:
@claudiabrinkmann1566 If volume = hypertrophy then do 30 reps instead of 15 lol. In reality, volume = mechanical tension. So even if you do 15 reps to "get those extra reps", those are fluffer reps. The only reps that count are the 5 reps at the end of a set.
@claudiabrinkmann1566 I didn't say you couldn't do sets of 20-25 for muscle growth. I literally supported your statement that fatigue is a factor when you do high reps.
@solokwa I disagree with a couple of his points from a natural lifter's context.
First, joints for naturals are not a limiting factor usually. Steroid users grow faster muscularly but not fast enough in their joints and connective tissue so they need to consider joint health a lot. But for a natural, all of this grows at the same rate. I do low reps for some movements (5-8 reps) but not for the reasons he is recommending.
Second, going above 13-15%, even up to 20% isn't as unhealthy as he makes it sound. Inflammation and hormone dysregulation aren't concerns since 15-20% are still fairly healthy bodyfat ranges.
@kenitay This can be a big issue for people who get into lifting without an athletic background. If someone gets into bodybuilding or strength training after playing sports and working out casually for most of their youth this might never become an issue, but if someone in their 20s or 30s that never played sports or exercised outside of gym class gets into lifting seriously, they’ll have to take it slow or they’ll start tearing tendons and ligaments as they start to push the weight up.
@solokwa 6 sets per muscle is pretty accurate but some muscle groups will go over that easily like triceps, its really hard to do a push day without almost everything hitting triceps. The exercises that hit chest/shoulders would be closer to 6 sets. Pull day is going to hit biceps a lot, Leg day quads but things like calves and hamstrings, 6 is plenty if that.
@solokwa Generally good advice. Only caveats I can see are potentially doing more than 6 sets for certain muscle groups during a specialization phase. The low reps thing is also a little strange - wouldn’t higher reps mean less weight, which means less stress on your joints and connective tissues? If you’re jerking the weight around I guess I could see an argument here, but the solution is better technique not lower reps.
