Serious injury forces immediate retirement from BWF – farewell everyone after 2+ good years!

[ironicall]

@bibbigo The Iron Cross has always been an egotistical gymnast power move. I have worked with gymnasts who have told me that that the Iron cross is NOT worth the risks and degradation of the shoulder capsule and glenohumeral joint.

That move has resulted in a high percentage of shoulder surgeries of elite level gymnasts and ring specialists.

It is not a natural movement. Most body weight fitness is safe, when we are primarily doing natural movements. Obviously it is cool and fun to push ourselves to limits previously unachievable, but you never do so without risk.

EDIT: This statement seems to have really triggered some people. It is worth emphasizing that some people may never have issues with the iron cross, especially gymnasts who have trained their entire life doing them. NONETHELESS, they are definitely 100% dangerous on the shoulder joints, and cause a breakdown in the connective tissue. MORE so than deadlifts, squats, running fast, planches etc.

Planches do not put any where near the amount of sheer tension on the shoulder joint than an Iron cross does.

Most people that frequent this subreddit are bodyweight fitness generalists, NOT specialists like gymnastic professionals. An iron cross for generalists is 100% an egotistical power move, just to say "they can do it, or hold it for x seconds". I'm standing firm by my notion that it is NOT worth the wear and tear it does to the shoulder joint.

 

[jermyn]

@ironicall

I have worked with gymnasts who have told me that that the Iron cross is NOT worth the risks and degradation of the shoulder capsule and glenohumeral joint.
That move has resulted in a very high percentage of shoulder surgeries of elite level gymnasts and ring specialists.

I have heard this time and time again as well. What ends up happening to their shoulders? Did they explain it to you?

 

[ironicall]

@jermyn From speaking to surgeons in sports med, the level of sheer tension this exercise puts on the bursae, ligaments and other connective tissue can cause unnatural tearing over time - or immediate life debiliating tearing immediately (in a failure, probably what happened to OP).

Cysts can form if these tears occur on the bursae, you can get complete tearing which will scar on other connective tissue. Our shoulder joints are not designed for this type of movement, and it should only ever be attempted by people who have unbelievable straight arm strength (competitive level gymnasts) and never performed often.

 

[jermyn]

@ironicall Interesting. Thought the same thing but didn’t have the mechanism for it. Just saw how many of those high level specialist AND generalist who are more casual get injured when doing Iron Cross. I got to thinking that the movement itself might not be very safe. Or worth it. Why risk a potential lifetime injury. A Full Planche can probably give you most of the ring gains you’ll ever need with much less risk.

Thank you. I fully support your statement. This isn’t just tendinitis. It’s an injury that can require surgery and end your fitness journey for a long time AND often does. I don’t see much point where there are so many safer moves before it that will let you gain without the risk of so much pain.

 

[westernrose]

@jermyn It is totally not worth it for gains, it's so specific it doesnt translate to much in daily life or other moves.

Training for the iron cross gets you that: an iron cross.
Some people do it to win an olimpic medal, some for a cool instagram pic

I dont think i have ever seen anyone recommend training iron cross for muscle gain as a natural progression from or to something else. It's useful for maltese, but that is another high risk element

Im 99% sure this post is an April's fools joke tough

 

[jermyn]

@westernrose I REALLY hope this is an April Fools post. Would be sad to hear it wasn’t. But I wouldn’t be surprised if it wasn’t given how painful IC can be. Definitely not something I think is worth the risk. Especially when you can work towards something like a Full Planche and probably get more gains than you’ll ever need in life.

 

[josephtheprotector]

@ironicall Are there any exercises in BWF that are damaging Which we should know about?

 

[grasir]

@josephtheprotector One that stands out: A lot of people fuck up their spines attempting handstand push ups.

It is just as easy, or easier, to hurt yourself doing bodyweight exercise as it is doing weightlifting. The human body is very strong in some positions and very weak in others, and a lot of people attempt bodyweight movements that put them in weak and dangerous positions when they don’t have the strength and balance to deal with them.

 

[panheadvic]

@grasir So what should one watch out for when doing/training for HSPU?

 

[chrishill88]

@panheadvic work on hollow body/rib cage down, glutes squeezed -> straight lower back. most people need to go back a progression on HSPU to ensure proper form

 

[dawn16]

@ironicall I’m sorry but as a former rings gymnast I find it hard to believe anybody telling you that an iron cross is not worth it considering it’s all but required at the collegiate level. Unless if I’m misunderstanding the context of that advice.

Yes if trained improperly you do risk injury with an iron cross just like any other skill. The majority of shoulder surgeries are not caused by one specific skill like a cross, it’s caused by overwork and both strength skills and swinging skills contribute to that.

 

[ironicall]

@dawn16 I should have been more explicit, in that for the bodyweightfitness generalist (not professional gymnasts), its probably an exercise which should be avoided. A lot of people will work up to it, and invariably hurt themselves, all for their ego. It is not a safe exercise, and should really be utilized for professionals who have the time and commitment to the straight arm strength training time necessary to do it "safely" (still not convinced safe and iron cross can be used in the same sentence) .

Even when done with correct form ,strength and technique, it can still completely fuck people up. It puts a lot of tension on the shoulder joint.

 

[dawn16]

@ironicall I understand thank you for clarifying

 

[big_sinner]

@ironicall I'm trying work towards an Azarian, should I not be training it often? Maybe it's a skill I come back to after a few weeks to check its progress? I have two sessions a week where I'm doing crosses.

 

[dawn16]

i think OP is saying that if you have spent your formative years from ages 6-18 training your body, then yes, go on and practice/execute an iron cross. but if you pick this up later on, you won't have developed the connective tissue strength to truly perform it. connective tissue takes much longer to develop than muscle, if it will develop.

 

[niishea]

@ironicall I just can't get over how misguided this statement is. An egotistical power move? Anyone benching heavy, or squating heavy, or deadlifting heavy, or doing OAPs, or planches, or running fast or literally anything else done at a high level must be doing an egotistical power move! Yup that's definitely it! You won't find a single serious male gymnast who can't do a cross. It's LITERALLY a basic move (B) and the staple of every single rings routine. I would seriously love to see these statistics of a "very high percentage" of elite gymnasts tearing their shoulders and causing degradation on a basic move thats a warmup for them. It's no more ''unnatural'' than any other BWF move and is great increasing straight arm pulling strength. The planche and maltese place your shouders in the same disadvantageous position, lets axe those too. This is just so disingenuous. Sure, it's not a smart idea to jump head first into something you aren't conditioned for but that can be said about any fitness.

 

[jermyn]

@niishea

The planche and maltese place your shouders in the same disadvantageous position,

I think Iron Cross has the shoulders internally rotated + a very bad lever.

Planches don’t make you internally rotate your shoulders like that. Those technically are different positions.

 

[niishea]

@jermyn Plenty of people don't internally rotate during the cross. And even if everyone did, internal rotation like that actual helps prevent the humeral head from rising up and either causing impingement or putting excessive force on your teres major and infraspinatus as they compensate. Just like every other advanced lift, there are obvious risks if you aren't using good technique and physically prepared. But saying its moreso than the other similar exercises i think is very psueosciency. Unless you have data that shows otherwise, because anatomically and from a physics standpoint they are very similar. He comes across like all the other people saying "deadlifts are so bad for backs bruh", or squats and running are bad for your knees, don't do OHP its bad for your shoulders etc. Just another bullet point in the list of uninformed hearsay that perpetuates through fitness circles.

 

[jermyn]

@niishea

And even if everyone did, internal rotation like that actual helps prevent the humeral head from rising up and either causing impingement or putting excessive force on your teres major and infraspinatus as they compensate.

Not sure about that. Any rising that happens while internally rotated might be even worse...

Just like every other advanced lift, there are obvious risks if you aren't using good technique and physically prepared. But saying its moreso than the other similar exerc

I disagree here. I think some movements have more risk than others. Like take a Full Planche. Would you count that as the same level as an Iron Cross? I think the risk here is lower than an Iron Cross.

He comes across like all the other people saying "deadlifts are so bad for backs bruh", or squats and running are bad for your knees, don't do OHP its bad for your shoulders etc

The thing is he DIDN’T do that. He singled out the iron cross and said it’s different. The other movements you listed are pretty high leverage movements compared to the iron cross where you use a terrible lever in full internal rotation. I’m not saying everyone will get hurt with it. But I do think a lot of people get hurt with it in serious ways like OP compared to other movements which sometimes cause injury but much less severe ones.

 

[niishea]

@jermyn Yes rising is bad form in the cross, what I am saying is internally rotated shoulders help prevent that from happening. Try rolling your shoulders forward right now and see how much it limits your depression/elevation compared to unrolled - its much more locked in.

And its all about what you are conditioned for. My pulling is better and crosses feel substantially easier on my elbows than my maltese/planche work does. The elbow pits are also facing different directions between a rings planche and a cross, meaning their engagement of the brachioradialis and anconeous are different. If you haven't conditioned for a specific one its going to feel worse. It has nothing to do with load itself and they are mechanically very similar. I can tell you i would be much more likely to injure my elbow doing planches. Also whats the difference between a highly leveraged position with very high weight and low leveraged positions with low weights? Not a whole lot. We do front and back levers all the time but I don't hear anyone here arguing they are unsafe (and look at the shoulder position in BL, seem familiar?)

He singled out an exercise just like people do with deadlifts, squats etc. without providing legitimate data (and i posted multiple links in my other comment which disagree). Trying to pass it off like professionals tell him this which is total garbage since every pro gymnast can do a cross since its really not as advanced of a skill as people make it to be. Butterfly? Sure probably a lot more get injured but thats because its way harder and there are much fewer people conditioned to properly do that. The people who get hurt doing crosses are either not properly conditioned, overworked, or have prior acute or accumulated damage.